Wednesday, November 11, 2009

Debate: The Evolutionary Basis of Sexual Depravity

Paul from Reasonable Doubt and I are debating Christian sexual morality.


  1. Paul's Opening. Points to various laws regulating consensual behavior in the bible.
  2. My rebuttal


  1. My opening. The evolutionary defense of sexual depravity.
  2. Paul's rebuttal
  3. My closing


He brings up many topics but I would like to focus on what I take to be the most important: abstinence and marriage. Paul writes:


Let's start with a really simple truth - sex is not a bad thing. Moving on, sex between consenting adults is not a bad thing. More importantly, sex between consenting adults is not my business, not your business and, unless you are god not for you to judge.


I agree that sex is a good thing – but only within the context of lifelong marriage. Otherwise sex is ugly, and shameful. A very simple example is polygamy. That involves consensual sex, but for every man with ten wives, nine men must go wifeless. What are these men supposed to do – give up on life? Of course not. Daly and Wilson write in their book Homocide, the study of murder from an evolutionary perspective, that “Any creature that is recognizably on track towards complete reproductive failure must somehow expend effort, often at risk of death, to try to improve its present life trajectory.” One way these males can improve their life trajectory is by taking their rage out on their own society. An even better method is to take it out on a neighboring society. The old distinction between those who are “Like Us” and “The Other.” Either these unmarried young men will distinguish themselves in war, in which case they will be able to take wife (perhaps from among the vanquished tribe), or they will die. Either way the problem is solved. The anthropologist Napoleon Chagnon showed that the single best predictor of reproductive success among the Yanomamo is whether or not they had killed a man in battle.

This is a pretty typical finding in evolutionary biology. During mating season the males and females gather around a mating ground called a lek. The males fight to establish a territory on the lek. The females choose the males who establish the largest, most centrally located territory on the lek. The alpha males will acquire a large harem of females. The beta males - the vast majority of males - will have very little sexual access to females.

Let's not be guilty of assuming that polygamy is just an animal thing. There are three classic signs of a polygamous species and humans show all three. They are (1) Males are larger than females. That is because males are put into an arms race with other males to gain alpha status. (2) males are more aggressive than females. Don't think that this is "socially constructed". The anthopologist Donald Brown has found that male aggression is a human universal - it is found in every known human society regardless of how primitive. (3) Males delay adolescence compared to females. That gives males extra time to mature before becoming a sexual threat to older and stronger males. G.P. Murdoch has found that 80% of human cultures were at least partially polygamous prior to contact with the West.


Sperm are Cheaper than Eggs


The root cause of polygamy follows from a principle that I'm sure is familiar to any atheist who has ever read a popular book on evolution by someone other than Steven Jay Gould: sperm are cheaper than eggs. More generally, there is a large asymmetry in the amount of parental investment made by males compared to females. This forces females to be choosy and lets males be promiscuous. The outcome is polygamy as females choose an alpha male.

I see a few problems with this situation. The first is that it is inegalitarian. As a conservative I am sometimes asked by progressive why I don't care about inequalities in wealth (not to be confused with poverty). The answer is simple. The economy is not a zero-sum game. The fact that Bill Gates has 60 billion dollars also means that I am a bit richer myself. But the fact that an alpha male has ten wives does not mean that other males have two wives. reproduction is a zero sum game. Even if we disagree about whether or not there should be laws against polygamy, surely it is clear that a situation in which alpha males rule the roost is bad?

From an evolutionary perspective males in a species that is at least partially monogamous have two strategies. The first strategy is to develop a signal of genetic quality. That typically means highly developed secondary sexual traits like big muscles (if you are a human) or a large tail (if you are a peacock or a barn swallow).* The problem with the signal strategy is that it is essentially a waste. It is an arms race, a zero-sum game. Females are only concerned about the relative strengths of the signals. Suppose Adam has bigger muscles than Bob and neither works out. Then Bob goes to the gym, works out and takes supplements (possibly illegal supplements ...) and gets bigger muscles. Then Bob has improved his reproductive success but only be demoting Adam. Then Adam goes to the gym and passes Bob. Now Adam gets all the girls. So Bob works out two hours day. Then Adam works out two hours a day ...

Critics might object "well, if Adam and Bob want to spend all their free time in the gym that is their business." Fair enough, but time spent developing a signal of genetic quality takes away from the other path that males in a monogamous species can take: investment into their wife and children. In the case of barn swallows males can either develop a long tail (signal of genetic quality much like peacocks) or build a large nest. They both work as methods to attract a mate. But building a large nest is participating in a non-zero sum game. Large comfortable nests are better than small, ghetto nests. Males who compete in this domain end out making the world a better place, particularly for their children. They also help their wives and make life easier for them.


Monogamy


Lifelong monogamy is an act of love. That's because it solves the root cause of the "sperm are cheaper than eggs" dilemma. Monogamy forces males and females to make basically identical investments into their offspring. Conversely, once the link between sex and marriage has been broken, "sperm are cheaper than eggs" reasserts itself. The alpha males dominate.

* there are other signals besides big muscles. Intelligence, particularly in left-brained activities, probably plays a role. But it is clear that the evolutionary psyche motto of "stone age brain in a modern skull" has a large degree of truth, and thus promiscuity distorts male reproductive strategies in an unhealthy manner.

22 comments:

March Hare said...

I am very happy that you are trying to defend your faith's views using sensible(ish) ideas, such as the wastefulness of most evolutionary arms races and the (supposed) inequality of polygamy.

The simple argument "my faith is true therefore everything it says must be moral" is a conversation stopper that can only be countered by saying "you might have been fooled by a demon" etc. etc. which gets us nowhere.

You didn't touch upon homosexuality or onanism, but I'm sure your response to my opening post will.

I will respond to your opening salvo in the next couple of days.

Regards,
Paul.

March Hare said...

Posted a response to your opening defence: http://paulforpm.blogspot.com/2009/11/debate-depravity-response.html

Simon said...

Justin when you post "I agree that sex is a good thing – but only within the context of lifelong marriage. Otherwise sex is ugly, and shameful."
it really sums up your views.

It’s really about trying to grasp at any reason to justify your particular social more. It has as much validity as someone trying to argue the ‘morality’ of men wearing kilts.


The fact that you are trying to stretch a evolutionary biological perspective seems to indicate a certain amount of desperation. Evolutionary justifications are amoral, it just won’t work.

Justin Martyr said...

Hi Simon,

Why don't you tell me which premise you object to.

The Sociobiolgy Premise. There are consistent patterns in which animals maximize their reproductive fitness at the expense of others. (e.g. polygamy and adultery)

The Human Nature Premise Humans are not completely free of an animal nature. They follow patterns of sexual selection.

The Morality Premise Sexual selection arms races are immoral.

Frankly, I don't think that I'm trying to stretch evolutionary biology. I think our disagreements here echo Steven Jay Gould and Richard Lowentin's rear-guard and ultimately failed campaign against sociobiologists like Wilson and Dawkins. See Defender's of the Truth for an intellectual history.

Justin Martyr said...

P.S. This is why I love all the perceptive comments that I get on this blog! It challenges me and helps to shape my own thinking. From here on I will follow the above structure in making the case for the dark side of human nature.

Simon said...

Hi Justin,
none I base on the philosophical premise that you cannot get a ought from a factual is, from the natural world. Commonly mistaken as the Naturalistic fallacy.

My take on evolution and life/biology is that its purpose is the replication of genes nothing more nothing less. You might as well try deriving morality from the workings of a clock.

I would have thought if in general you wish to use this sort of evolutionary biological POV one would simply point out rape and infanticide are also successful evolutionary strategies.

An interesting point though is the view that the organism itself is thought purely as a vessel to replicate the genes. From this perspective we have no other purpose than to act as a physical system that enables the genes to replicate.

In a way we are now starting to escape -partly- from biology and going into cultural replication and survival. In this sense we are free winging it as culture allows behaviour that both supports and opposes some of the biological goals. eg a hermit that doesn't reproduce or aid society.

In the end you have to look else where to justify your more.

Justin Martyr said...

Simon,

I'm shocked by your last comment. You read this entire debate and then think I approve of this behavior?

Appeal to nature: X happens in nature, therefore X is good. Let's do X.

Justin's argument: X happens in nature, by any reasonable moral standard X is bad, so let's not do X.

In your example X = rape. In my examples X = having sex outside of marriage. But the reasoning is the same in both cases.

Now, if I a secular person like Roissy in DC then I'd say "I'm an alpha, you're a beta. The fact that you can't get laid just proves that evolution is weeding your out of the gene pool. Have a nice life."

Justin's take is: let's not let the Roissy situation happen. But to do that we need strong norms for abstinence.

March Hare said...

"Now, if I a secular person like Roissy in DC then I'd say "I'm an alpha, you're a beta.

The fact that you can't get laid just proves that evolution is weeding your out of the gene pool. Have a nice life.""


Actually, I dare say Roissy in DC is actually doing his damnedest to avoid adding tot he gene pool - most 'playas' tend to want to avoid their conquests getting pregnant, or having any children by them at the very least.

The human gene pool has two growth areas: the third world and poor, illiterate people. This does not augur well for the future.

"The Morality Premise Sexual selection arms races are immoral."
Erm... is a lion eating a gazelle immoral? Why are you placing your human morality onto an amoral subject? Humans are niot involved in any evolutionary arms races therefore the immorality or otherwise are completely irrellevant. See above for why there isn't one.

Justin Martyr said...

I've covered this ground extensively in the debate and on the thread on positional goods. People are not motivated by the desire to have babies. They are motivated to gain status over others. People want to be alpha and make others the beta. That leads to an arms race for positional goods and diverts people's energies away from the more valuable behaviors like sensitivity. You can't forge a society of cooperating equals if everyone is an arms race to become alpha. Babies have nothing to do with it, except that they are why people have this motivation.

March Hare said...

"That leads to an arms race for positional goods and diverts people's energies away from the more valuable behaviors like sensitivity."
In your opinion.

Behaviors that evolution chose, while not ideal now, were quite obviously the most effective and therefore most moral (if you want humans to survive) at the time.

We have obviously seen the limitations of most behaviours and sent a strong social signal that they are not appropriate in a successful, modern society.

What people currently choose to do, that aren't part of your social communist wonderland, is immoral? Says you. People should be free to do whatever they want if it doesn't harm anyone else. Argue against that, please...

Matt said...

"reproduction is a zero sum game"

Not if you bread wives for the guys who are missing out from your polygamy. Of course there will be a delay for them waiting for their future wives to mature.

March Hare said...

People want to be alpha and make others the beta. That leads to an arms race for positional goods and diverts people's energies away from the more valuable behaviors like sensitivity.

Well, that's human (or natural) behaviour. You, again, refuse to define alpha. Alpha could be rich, clever, generous, funny, strong, good looking, gregarious, powerful, famous... etc. You make a massive value judgement (that I agree with) that some behaviours are more socially valuable than others, but then go from that to say what people ought to do. Who are you to make that call? Where do you get your sense of righteousness from? I get mine from the common good and reason (which you apparently do too) but you claim to get yours froma 2,000 year old book - Christian Sexual Morality! Do you honestly think Chrisitans 500 years ago had remotely similar views to you?

Why not just be honest and say you have some views on sexual morality that some people may consider old fashioned or quaint, but that you have thought about and decided that they are the fairest and drop all the pretence that they are Christian views.

Justin Martyr said...

I believe in meeting atheists on their own terms. I take seriously the argument about "conversation stoppers." If I said "God proclaims that abstinence before marriage is good" then you would simply respond that you don't believe in God or the bible as a source of morality. So I use evolution to make the same point.

March Hare said...

I appreciate the use of means other than "a voice in my head told me what is right", or even worse, "a voice in someone else's head told them what was right and I believe them."

But do you see where this takes you?

If you can come up with reasons other than God why things are good and others not then what use is God?

Justin Martyr said...

Come on March, this is basic is-ought stuff here. Science tells us that becoming an alpha male is in our reproductive self-interest. But science cannot tell us that it is good. Nor can it tell us that it is bad.

My arguments implicitly rely on the fact that atheists believe that an unequal society is morally wrong. But the only way that belief can be true is if God exists. I think there are a lot of reasons why atheists can have quasi-moral beliefs, but if you want true morality you need God, or at least Plato's Form of the Good.

March Hare said...

You are one to talk about basic stuff.

You have just made the outrageous claim that there is no morality without God. You could not be further from the truth.

To have an absolute morality doesn't even require a God, although I think this would be one of the best arguments for a God.

I happen to think that there is no objective good, or morality. I have my own version of morality that is based on individual liberty, common good, reciprocity and fairness. Most people agree with most other people on the big moral issues if they grew up in the same society, that doesn't mean they are right. Take the death penalty, many people are in favour of it, I happen to believe it is morally indefensible and some religious people agree, but many religious people do not. How do we go about discovering the 'objective morality' of the death penalty?

As to the is-ought rule, I come from an economics background and the dismal science repeatedly breaks this rule. When someone asks should we force companies to install seat belts there is a scientific investigation into the expected costs and benefits and from an is (benefit>cost?) we get an ought.

Incidentally, your whole argument is based on is-ought. Do the traits that seem to be of evolutionary advantage (IS) seem advantageous or fair in modern society (OUGHT)?

Justin Martyr said...

When a Christian says that morality is not possible without God their is implicit fine print attached that is well-understood by both Christians and atheists.

1. Moral relativism is possible without God. That seems to be your view you take when you say "I have my own version of morality".

2. A self-sacrificial form of morality is not rational without God.

3. The assumption of metaphysical naturalism. If an atheists doesn't believe in God but does believe in Plato's Form of the Good or something similar, then yes, they can have objective morality without God.

Evolution

I've written all these posts about evolution in our ongoing debate and you somehow think I'm holding these rational reproductive behaviors as normative? If you do take them as normative then the implication is that Christian morality is certainly false. Instead we should all try to be alpha males and have sex with lots of women even if we are married.

Simon said...

Justin
"I'm shocked by your last comment. You read this entire debate and then think I approve of this behavior?"

I was referring to youre
"My last I agree that sex is a good thing – but only within the context of lifelong marriage. Otherwise sex is ugly, and shameful" more.

"by any reasonable moral standard X is bad,"

Rather, you are saying your standard.

& anyway even if we had your more and inforced abstinence and only had sex within marriage, there is no guarantee the beta males would still get a woman, so I really don't see your point, regardless of the fact you cannot use evolutionary biology is the wy you want.

Justin Martyr said...

Two points. The first is that I never said we should enforce abstinence. I just want to establish that promiscuous behavior is immoral. I do not think that everything that is immoral should be illegal.

Secondly, the point of providing empirical evidence from evolutionary biology is so that one does not have to accept my standard of morality. As long as (1) you have the generic moral belief that egalitarian societies are good and unequal status-seeking societies are bad, and (2) the emprical evidence from evolutionary biology is accurate, then you are forced to accept my conclusion.

March Hare said...
This post has been removed by the author.
March Hare said...

Justin,

1. All societies are status seeking. Even a communist state has people seeking to do the most common good. It is how people are made and to suggest that it is an immoral act to seek to do the most good seems strange.

2. Empirical evidence from evolution and biology does not apply to humans. If you must apply some non-modern standard then look at primitive tribes and see how they act.

So I guess by disagreeing with both your premises I can only conclude your conclusion is false.

My moral objection to your conclusion is one of freedom. You seek to constrain the acts (socially if not legally) of autonomous, consenting adults on the basis of the general good. I personally think that the general good is best served by giving people as much freedom as possible as long as it doesn't impinge upon other people's rights. As you have no right to a woman the I say let Roissy in DC have as many women as are willing to go to him and he can handle. Anything else is jealousy posing as morality.

Simon said...

Justin, Ok even if you don’t want it enforced you still don’t want people doing it.

But the thing is promiscuous behaviour still isn’t polygamy and I can’t see any reason why one cannot have an egalitarian society with polygamy or with promiscuous behaviour.

You can no more look at past or tribal polygamous societies that are unequal to argue against polygamy, than you can look at past or current societies that treat women in marriage as property to argue against marriage in general.

Let alone try to look at it in the animal kingdom.

Again promiscuous behaviour isn’t polygamy, so even if you could stretch it to say polygamy is wrong in ALL cases its till doesn’t argue against promiscuous behaviour. You could after all have a person who is against polygamy but still promiscuous.

I just don't see the connection.