Justin, Ok even if you don’t want it enforced you ...

2009-11-27T02:54:45.690-05:00

Justin, Ok even if you don’t want it enforced you still don’t want people doing it.

But the thing is promiscuous behaviour still isn’t polygamy and I can’t see any reason why one cannot have an egalitarian society with polygamy or with promiscuous behaviour.

You can no more look at past or tribal polygamous societies that are unequal to argue against polygamy, than you can

Justin, 1. All societies are status seeking. Even...

2009-11-23T12:11:04.144-05:00

Justin,

1. All societies are status seeking. Even a communist state has people seeking to do the most common good. It is how people are made and to suggest that it is an immoral act to seek to do the most good seems strange.

2. Empirical evidence from evolution and biology does not apply to humans. If you must apply some non-modern standard then look at primitive tribes and

Two points. The first is that I never said we shou...

2009-11-23T11:55:38.350-05:00

Two points. The first is that I never said we should enforce abstinence. I just want to establish that promiscuous behavior is immoral. I do not think that everything that is immoral should be illegal.

Secondly, the point of providing empirical evidence from evolutionary biology is so that one does not have to accept my standard of morality. As long as (1) you have the generic moral

Justin "I'm shocked by your last comment. You read...

2009-11-23T04:17:53.684-05:00

Justin
"I'm shocked by your last comment. You read this entire debate and then think I approve of this behavior?"

I was referring to youre
"My last I agree that sex is a good thing – but only within the context of lifelong marriage. Otherwise sex is ugly, and shameful" more.

"by any reasonable moral standard X is bad,"

When a Christian says that morality is not possibl...

2009-11-22T23:45:44.333-05:00

When a Christian says that morality is not possible without God their is implicit fine print attached that is well-understood by both Christians and atheists.

1. Moral relativism is possible without God. That seems to be your view you take when you say "I have my own version of morality".

2. A self-sacrificial form of morality is not rational without God.
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You are one to talk about basic stuff. You have j...

2009-11-22T15:52:48.011-05:00

You are one to talk about basic stuff.

You have just made the outrageous claim that there is no morality without God. You could not be further from the truth.

To have an absolute morality doesn't even require a God, although I think this would be one of the best arguments for a God.

I happen to think that there is no objective good, or morality. I have my

Come on March, this is basic is-ought stuff here. ...

2009-11-20T13:07:55.814-05:00

Come on March, this is basic is-ought stuff here. Science tells us that becoming an alpha male is in our reproductive self-interest. But science cannot tell us that it is good. Nor can it tell us that it is bad.

My arguments implicitly rely on the fact that atheists believe that an unequal society is morally wrong. But the only way that belief can be true is if God exists. I think

I appreciate the use of means other than "a voice ...

2009-11-20T11:31:14.572-05:00

I appreciate the use of means other than "a voice in my head told me what is right", or even worse, "a voice in someone else's head told them what was right and I believe them."

But do you see where this takes you?

If you can come up with reasons other than God why things are good and others not then what use is God?

I believe in meeting atheists on their own terms. ...

2009-11-20T09:32:40.479-05:00

I believe in meeting atheists on their own terms. I take seriously the argument about "conversation stoppers." If I said "God proclaims that abstinence before marriage is good" then you would simply respond that you don't believe in God or the bible as a source of morality. So I use evolution to make the same point.

People want to be alpha and make others the beta. ...

2009-11-20T04:55:00.867-05:00

People want to be alpha and make others the beta. That leads to an arms race for positional goods and diverts people's energies away from the more valuable behaviors like sensitivity.

Well, that's human (or natural) behaviour. You, again, refuse to define alpha. Alpha could be rich, clever, generous, funny, strong, good looking, gregarious, powerful, famous... etc.

"reproduction is a zero sum game" Not if you brea...

2009-11-20T04:38:53.923-05:00

"reproduction is a zero sum game"

Not if you bread wives for the guys who are missing out from your polygamy. Of course there will be a delay for them waiting for their future wives to mature.

"That leads to an arms race for positional goods a...

2009-11-19T19:54:54.406-05:00

"That leads to an arms race for positional goods and diverts people's energies away from the more valuable behaviors like sensitivity."
In your opinion.

Behaviors that evolution chose, while not ideal now, were quite obviously the most effective and therefore most moral (if you want humans to survive) at the time.

We have obviously seen the

I've covered this ground extensively in the debate...

2009-11-19T13:13:08.714-05:00

I've covered this ground extensively in the debate and on the thread on positional goods. People are not motivated by the desire to have babies. They are motivated to gain status over others. People want to be alpha and make others the beta. That leads to an arms race for positional goods and diverts people's energies away from the more valuable behaviors like sensitivity. You can't

"Now, if I a secular person like Roissy in DC then...

2009-11-19T11:53:46.625-05:00

"Now, if I a secular person like Roissy in DC then I'd say "I'm an alpha, you're a beta.

The fact that you can't get laid just proves that evolution is weeding your out of the gene pool. Have a nice life.""

Actually, I dare say Roissy in DC is actually doing his damnedest to avoid adding tot he gene pool - most 'playas'

Simon, I'm shocked by your last comment. You rea...

2009-11-19T11:21:10.142-05:00

Simon,

I'm shocked by your last comment. You read this entire debate and then think I approve of this behavior?

Appeal to nature: X happens in nature, therefore X is good. Let's do X.

Justin's argument: X happens in nature, by any reasonable moral standard X is bad, so let's not do X.

In your example X = rape. In my

Hi Justin, none I base on the philosophical premis...

2009-11-19T07:20:23.241-05:00

Hi Justin,
none I base on the philosophical premise that you cannot get a ought from a factual is, from the natural world. Commonly mistaken as the Naturalistic fallacy.

My take on evolution and life/biology is that its purpose is the replication of genes nothing more nothing less. You might as well try deriving morality from the workings of a clock.

I would have

P.S. This is why I love all the perceptive comment...

2009-11-16T09:43:38.654-05:00

P.S. This is why I love all the perceptive comments that I get on this blog! It challenges me and helps to shape my own thinking. From here on I will follow the above structure in making the case for the dark side of human nature.

Hi Simon, Why don't you tell me which premise you...

2009-11-16T09:42:13.747-05:00

Hi Simon,

Why don't you tell me which premise you object to.

The Sociobiolgy Premise. There are consistent patterns in which animals maximize their reproductive fitness at the expense of others. (e.g. polygamy and adultery)

The Human Nature Premise Humans are not completely free of an animal nature. They follow patterns of sexual selection.

Justin when you post "I agree that sex is a good t...

2009-11-15T05:58:27.401-05:00

Justin when you post "I agree that sex is a good thing – but only within the context of lifelong marriage. Otherwise sex is ugly, and shameful."
it really sums up your views.

It’s really about trying to grasp at any reason to justify your particular social more. It has as much validity as someone trying to argue the ‘morality’ of men wearing kilts.

The

Posted a response to your opening defence: http://...

2009-11-13T06:06:43.273-05:00

Posted a response to your opening defence: http://paulforpm.blogspot.com/2009/11/debate-depravity-response.html

I am very happy that you are trying to defend your...

2009-11-12T08:19:10.256-05:00

I am very happy that you are trying to defend your faith's views using sensible(ish) ideas, such as the wastefulness of most evolutionary arms races and the (supposed) inequality of polygamy.

The simple argument "my faith is true therefore everything it says must be moral" is a conversation stopper that can only be countered by saying "you might have been fooled by a

Comments on The Faith Heuristic: Debate: The Evolutionary Basis of Sexual Depravity...